Comments on Don't Feed the Animals: False Arguments for Atheism

Just because we humans are susceptible to various ...

2011-09-29T09:11:46.219-04:00

Just because we humans are susceptible to various idealogies doesn't give a reason not to get rid of religion. Also, just recollect the attrocities that religion caused in the world, against those caused by other idealogies like Eugenics or whatever. There might be other idealogies that are a flash in the pan, but religion consistenly delivered and continues to deliver pain n suffering in this world. Your argument sounds like 'lets not flush the toilet now because we are gonna shit in it again tomorrow morning'. Also ur first point of God being terrible sounds to be a perfectly valid argument for me. Atheism is lacking a belief in a diety, not lacking in a belief in the existence of a deity, although the latter presupposes the former. Losing belief in a deity upn realising the diety being terrible, is fine with me too. I have no isssues arguing with a theist that even if the god of their bible/gita/quran exists, I would still not believe because that god is wicked and terrible.

Your claim is that, if we get rid of religion, it ...

2011-09-29T03:13:16.007-04:00

Your claim is that, if we get rid of religion, it will be replaced by another ideology. That is not an argument for keeping religion. It is an argument for getting rid of religion, AND THEN working to get rid of the other ideologies as well. It's like saying, we need to keep nationalism, because if we got rid of nationalism, religion would replace it.

Skrikar: I just have to disagree with you. I think...

2011-09-28T11:38:34.735-04:00

Skrikar: I just have to disagree with you. I think humans, in their basic form, are susceptible to ideologies of any type. Totalitarianism doesn't need religion, it works just fine with nationalism or any kind of fake values. You've got a lot of shit to strike down: aryanism, eugenics, etc. Superstition isn't a crime syndicate with a head to remove. It is part of our natural thought process.

I have no doubt in my mind that the world will be ...

2011-09-28T11:32:59.662-04:00

I have no doubt in my mind that the world will be better without religion. Religion offers a perfect stealth ground for totalitarian ideologies to be breed. Any idiot with a totalitarian ideology can easily sell in disguise of religion, and the deluded masses would easily buy into it. Also, religion is the commander in cheif of superstition. Get rid of it and you crack open superstition. Surely the world will be better without religion.

The first one drives me up the wall because it mos...

2011-09-28T10:19:44.498-04:00

The first one drives me up the wall because it mostly comes from Christians, not atheists. Atheists will be making the argument that Christianity is not morally coherent, and then Christians will say "ha, I knew you believed in God, you're just angry!"

Plus one to Paul Vasquez.

2011-09-28T08:28:42.744-04:00

Plus one to Paul Vasquez.

Masque, from what I have read, there's as much...

2011-09-28T02:29:34.341-04:00

Masque, from what I have read, there's as much evidence that Jesus existed as for just about any other figure from the ancient world.

Regardless, for me, this argument is a waste of time. It can't be definitively won, and proving or disproving it does nothing to further the rationalist position. Regardless of whether or not Jesus actually lived, he wasn't the son of any god, nor did he have supernatural powers of any kind. This is a much stronger argument that any rationalist should be setting forth because it is much more certain and tenable.

I haven't seen Zeitgeist, but I have my doubts...

2011-09-28T00:14:45.346-04:00

I haven't seen Zeitgeist, but I have my doubts about Jesus having ever existed. It's got some theologians and historians behind it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_myth_theory

"The Bible God is terrible." isn't a...

2011-09-27T22:42:42.913-04:00

"The Bible God is terrible." isn't an argument for atheism. It's an argument against Christianity--and the one that got me out of Christianity.

It took me several more days to go from not-Christian to atheist. I might not have gone on that route without realizing the Bible God really is terrible.

Any of these arguments work for Atheism, but they ...

2011-09-27T18:58:13.897-04:00

Any of these arguments work for Atheism, but they should never be the sole reason for someone to reject theism. Like you said, it is the confluence of several factors that stop blind faith in its tracks. Resting on a single ideological principal to justify any belief is a shaky basis to establish an ideology. Even without god, pride is still a sin.

muraydog: I think people understand this, it's...

2011-09-27T17:58:49.280-04:00

muraydog: I think people understand this, it's just hard to keep them in hermetically sealed containers in every single blog post.

geekatheist: This might sound paranoid, but I'm not convinced all of those things you mentioned were purely motivated by religion. Further, I'm not convinced similar things wouldn't be perpetrated in the name of other ideologies if religion was not a factor. That's my point.

I think you're being a little naive here. Wit...

2011-09-27T17:30:04.141-04:00

I think you're being a little naive here.

Without religion we wouldn't have the Israeli-Palestine war, the crusades, the witch hunts, etc.

When we talk religion, most of the time we talk about Organized Religion. There are people in high ranks, telling people lies and threatening them if they ever question them.

It's not just "the belief in God"; Sure, I could be theist and believe in an omnipotent God that loved us all... but most of the time belief in a God is tied to an unquestioning obedience to the Bible and the Holy Scriptures; with labelling of non-believers as "heathens" and "the scum of the earth".

Also, the realization that "if there's a God he is terrible" is, in a way, proof, because it contradicts the unbiblical notion that God is good and loves us all.

But yes, I agree with you that atheism (or theism) doesn't make one happy. It just saves you from a doctrine that can make you very, VERY unhappy.

I agree that the three arguments about which you s...

2011-09-27T17:22:23.144-04:00

I agree that the three arguments about which you speak are not sufficient arguments for atheism; however, If you notice, they are all repudiations of claims made by believers, so I don't think they are irrelevant to a discussion on atheism either.

What I find to be more damaging to the cause of rationalism is when an overzealous atheist uses false information to argue against religion. For example, I've known some atheists who have tried to argue that Jesus never existed because they were influenced by "Zeitgeist." Unfortunately, when a well informed apologist encounters this argument he is able to punch enough holes in this weak argument that the atheist is made to look discredited. This not only damages the atheists ability to promote rationalism, but it also encourages his interlocutor to go on believing and spreading his myths.

I'm not saying it's a good reason to becom...

2011-09-27T17:13:32.450-04:00

I'm not saying it's a good reason to become an atheist, or even that it has anything really to do with atheism, I'm merely pointing out that a world without religion probably would be a more hospitable place. Why are people so vehemently anti-gay-marriage? Mostly (and you can see this with otherwise liberal people who take this stance) because their religion told them to be. I could list more examples, but it's time to go home, and you get the idea.

While I myself would prefer a world without religi...

2011-09-27T17:13:13.449-04:00

While I myself would prefer a world without religion, I agree with Andrew that it's not a good argument for atheism. Religion could be acknowledged universally as a bad thing, but that doesn't actually disprove the existence of a deity or the supernatural. The lack of evidence for the existence of gods or the supernatural is the best reason to not assume their existence, i.e., an atheist position. Everything else, while it may be true, are arguments for other propositions, like "humanism is a good idea" or things of that nature.

Pros and cons my good Bryson. You're spot on a...

2011-09-27T17:06:54.260-04:00

Pros and cons my good Bryson. You're spot on about more people enjoying life for what it is, hopefully. Enough others would perhaps act out rashly as the afterlife repercussions would suddenly be void, and our lazy "gawd did it" folks would continue as our "some kinda techno babble thang caused iyt".

Won't contend that the world wouldn't be better overall, the honesty of a Godless world would be a major improvement. Andrew maintains that more ideologies (religions?) may/will rise to take the place. We're a species of believers, systems of values hold us together.

Where to draw the line between belief systems and religions (god-free or otherwise) is a semantic debate. Separating the arguments of religions and god-belief is probably a good compartmentalization.

Religion and god are not the same thing - God(s) c...

2011-09-27T17:01:12.275-04:00

Religion and god are not the same thing - God(s) can exist without religion(s), and vice versa. I find the interchanging of these two terms a huge problem for theists and atheists.

godlessBryson: My argument is that religion is jus...

2011-09-27T16:49:01.786-04:00

godlessBryson: My argument is that religion is just another ideology that can be impressed on people to induce the same behavior. Without religion, we would still have to contend with the same bullshit, but just perpetrated by another ideology.

Aw, c'mon... the world would be a better place...

2011-09-27T16:42:20.861-04:00

Aw, c'mon... the world would be a better place without religion. Not because of the bad perpetrated in the name of religion(s), but because people might actually attempt to experience their world, live their lives and stop hoping there's something good after death. I think that WOULD make the world a better place. Religion makes people lazy. "Oh, I don't need to know that... the answer is always 'gawd did it'."