M_____: God-Be still and know that I AM GOD. M_____-but God, being still doesn't define anything! God-no M_____, you being still and allowing ME to be who I AM defines ME, I AM GOD.
I promised my family that I wouldn't bother her any more regarding her religion, but the crazy in this one was too much. I had to reply:
Andrew: On the off-chance that there is no god, wouldn't it be better to be active and hedge your bets? Surely, a benevolent god would not blame you for working hard to help yourself. And if it turns out that god is just a voice in your head all along, well, at least you got up and did something instead of waiting around for something to happen to you.
Not surprisingly, my sister replied with more inane god stuff.
M_____: lol. thank you for your input brother. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is real and He loves you and me very very very much. God helps those who can't help themselves, He meets us right where we're at. For me He meets me where I keep trying to do things in my own power and wisdom and I keep failing miserably. Gods ways are perfect and just and they always work out for the good of those who love Him. When I rely on God and He comes through everytime.
I decided to pose a question to her, hoping that she would consider what exactly it was she was doing:
Andrew: Do you think that if you stopped praising god, your life would be stuck in the gutter?
To my bewilderment, she actually decided to take it to heart:
M_____: good q brother, I don't think stuck in a gutter would even begin to describe it but I was trying to think what I would be feeling if I stopped praising God. I couldn't even imagine my life without God, Andrew. Good q though
She's opened the door to admitting that her belief is a crutch, but will she put herself in another pair of shoes to realize it fully?
Andrew: I ask because there are tons of people who get along just fine without all that extra god stuff. If I were in your situation, I would ask myself, "Why do I need it while everybody else does just fine without it?"
At this point, a friend of my sister decides to poke her head into the conversation:
Irene: Been enjoying the interaction between you two...appearances are always decieving looks like everyone is doing just great but are they? Every human being has an empty void/ a space within them that they know must be filled, but with what, ...with whom? Is it me, myself, & I, is it happiness, no more loneliness, people, peace...the quest is found in God not things, not sex, marriage, drugs, people, money, power, cars, tho nice to have, they still leave you kind of empty.You can deny the void inside you all you want, but its there. God put it there to fill you with Himself & love.We are all different individuals but intrinsically we all have the same need, a Savior. I like your straight up honesty!!
It irks me when people say that non-believers have some sort of void in them. What a pompous way to live your life.
Andrew: Irene, thank you, but it is presumptuous to say that we all need a savior. If there exists a void in me, then I fill it with learning about the world I live in, and it fills just fine. To assume that I need a savior is to state in bold print that you have never met me. Sure, I've gone through rough patches - that's just part of having a conscious brain. But I've climbed out of mine on my own. I make my own decisions, I motivate myself, I teach myself. If someone wants to swoop in and claim to be my savior, I'd laugh in his face. Please understand that your religion is for you. I'm merely asking my sister if she has bothered to really think about her belief in the context of great and varied humanity. There are over 2000 gods that people worship. The way I see it, there's a simpler way to go about life.
My sister finally chimes in:
M_____: I see Andrew, yeah that makes sence but I know that I am not fine without God. I would not have been able to get through several situations without the Love of God and His unconditional love. I know I haven't kept you informed of all thats been happening but I tell you now that I would not be alive and here and happy today without having a personal relationship with my Savior. As for everyone else I can't speak for them.
She's close... close. But then:
Irene: Andrew all humanity needs a savior, we just don't recognize the need to believe in that one thing that is greater than ourselves in every way. Yeah people have chosen 2000 other gods and eventually some find the one true and living God that fills the void within each of us. Even professed, staunch atheists have found Him in their quest for truth. Nah, this is not about religion, there enough religious zealots out there. I despise religiosity! I'll butt out now...I believe all roads in life, sets of circumstances, relationships will eventually lead us to God. It took me 32 years walking that road but I finally found the ultimate peace,happiness, & fulfillment the world always promised but never produced. Thnx for letting me share a little.
I realize that Christianity doesn't have the monopoly on peace and happiness, so what would happen if this was pointed out to a true believer?
Andrew: Irene, hypothetical: If I used the same language that you do, using words like "peace" and "happiness" and "fulfillment" but attributed it to, say, Hinduism, would you think I was lying or delusional? Would you think I was mistaken? Or would you accept that, hey, maybe this person has found the same thing I have while following a different god? I ask because it seems from the other words you use that you think that your god is the one true one, but I wonder what authority or evidence you have to back up that claim. If it is something you just know, what makes you a better judge than anyone else on the matter? I just don't think it's right to say that your god is the one true one... there's gotta be some circumstantial evidence to back it up. EVERYONE thinks their god is the one true one, or else they wouldn't believe in it. Once again, I think there's a simpler answer to it all.
Can you hear the sound of the wind blowing through an empty skull?
Irene: ok, if there's a simpler answer to it all, what's your interpretation of it? Response to question: I would think you are misled in your beliefs. Wouldn't call you a liar or say you're delusional tho. Why worship a stone or statue and say "this is my god." Christianity is not a man-made religion like all the other 2000 gods out there.True Christianity is based on the Bible, the spoken & written Word of God.Not enough space in this little fb box to break down circumstantial evidence for you. You search it out, you find out for yourself. Fact is Eastern religions have borrowed phrases&words like happiness, peace, wholeness, etc from Christianity & Christian traditions for centuries. My standard is the Word of God, the Bible,the Scriptures not whether or not the lines have been blurred between truth & error through their eclectic nature.Eastern religions are counterfeits.I believe Jesus is the Son of God, they believe he's an enlightened teacher. I believe our salvation was purchased by the blood of Jesus they believe in the process of integration, my focus is Christ-centered, theirs is man centered. I believe that power comes through Christ, they believe it comes through themselves. I believe in God's wisdom, they believe in their own...Are you Hindu?
And then I dropped the bomb:
Andrew: Irene, I am an atheist and it is because I pay attention to religion and apply critical thinking to it that I will never believe. You claim that eastern religions borrow from Christianity, but it is Christianity that is the newcomer here. Hinduism, for instance, predates Christianity by more than 1000 years. How can one be counterfeit if they came before? Furthermore, what makes the bible the word of god? I can write a few phrases on a napkin and raise a child to think that is the word of god, too. Jesus is a generally good moral figure, but the bible is filled with atrocities and despicable acts by god. Yet, Jesus and god are the same, so what does that ultimately make him? What power are you speaking of that comes through Christ? Are you willing to demonstrate it? If all you have to show for your belief is a heightened state of self-esteem, I can point you in the direction of several drugs and mental conditions that supply the same. If one claims that god does good things in their life, then whence comes the good in the lives of non-believers? Let's be frank here, you mince words when you say you would call someone misled, but you wouldn't call them delusional. You really have no authority to say either way. I mean, within Christianity, there are hundreds of ways to interpret the bible - what makes yours the right one? How can you say that over someone with just as much fervor?
When I was younger, I had a little revelation of logic. I realized that the world is full of religions; some more alike than others, but ultimately different ones. The catch is that each one needs to be THE ONE or else it wouldn't be necessary for its believers to follow it. So it comes to this: either one specific variety of one specific religion is THE ONE... or none of them are. Which do you think is more likely? What religion do you think you would be if you were born in the middle east? What religion do you think you would be if the vikings had successfully taken over Europe? Believers like to ask atheists, "Well what if you're wrong?" Well, what if YOU'RE wrong?
As it is, you can show me no empirical evidence that god exists. Perhaps an anecdote or two, sure, but how reliable is the human psyche to trust in such a matter? Remember, there are billions of people who swear to their last breath that you're the wrong one.
The key to this all is perspective and I think that many believers lack the ability to think through the minds of people who disagree with them. I consider this to be one of my favorite traits. Using it is how I came to be an atheist... and a pretty happy one at that.
Thanks for reading.
Not long after I wrote that, the air was sucked out of the room by the gaping void of another believer's intellect butting in:
Tiffany: Very interesting topic-converstation. To say that God doesn't help or that you don't need Him to get by is something that will one day soon change for you. Tell me, how do you know the wind exists?
One day, my friend you will have to bow before a God that gave you several chances, like now and confess that He is God. You may not believe now that God could even love a human being like you or that you can rely on yourself to do things, ...but we will be praying for you. To not tell you that God loves you would not be right. I am a firm believer that when anyone states that they are atheist, it is because they don't want to give God a chance... That's what born again Christians have said and done....then one day.....they decided to make the best choice ever. You will see. God Bless You, brother.See More
I'm hoping to put an end to this soon:
Andrew: Tiffany: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind#Cause This is grade school science class stuff. Shouldn't you know this already?
But you bring up a good topic here. Why SHOULD we bow down before god? What has he done? According to the bible, he's... a despicable character. Judging by what he does to people during times of war and famine, I would consider it a completely immoral act to praise such a terrible being. I would feel sickened to be on the good side of such a vile creature. Now, you can believe that an atheist does not want to give god a chance, but many atheists are former believers. Many HAVE tried. At what point do you stop trying and realize that god has nothing for you? Why tempt me with something I have no need of? Once again, this is all about perspective. Try to see the world through another's eyes and you will see parts of your world that make no sense at all.
Ive dealt with the same type of situation many many times in my own family (devout south american catholics), just not as eloquently as you. APPLAUSE
ReplyDeleteI'm interested in having a conversation with you about this if you are, but I'd first like to point out that your belief system should be called antitheism, not just atheism. You are not merely lacking in a religious belief, but you are opposed to all kinds of religious beliefs (from what I have seen).
ReplyDeleteChiefly, I want to say that I both agree and disagree with everybody in this conversation. However, what has not been properly done (and hence invalidates the entire debate) is a proper definition of terms. I, for example, choose to believe in something that I call God, but I use the word to refer to (among other things) an entity somewhat along the lines of the Weak and Strong Nuclear Forces (which there is evidential proof of). Considering a line then, from the Bible: "Everything was made by God -- nothing! Not one thing was made without him" (John 1, The Message translation) you can see how this applies.
Now, in my case, of course, the belief is vastly different than that of Irene's or your sister perhaps, but that does not mean that their belief is not worth holding -- EVEN IF it is wrong. Consider optimism, for example. If it has been shown that optimists are happier in life, and you want to be happy, you could choose to believe that things will work out well, and then you will be happier. This is true regardless of how accurate a prediction of circumstances the optimistic outlook actually is, hence optimism could be a valuable belief regardless. Similarly, a religious belief could hold other external effects.
However, in order to have any ability to consider the probability of this, you would first have to ASK her sister what she means by phrases like "the Love of God and His unconditional love."
I do concede the Irene is very ignorant re: Hinduism etc.
Your thoughts on the matter?
Malcolm: Speaking of definition of terms, I'd like to correct your use of various terms. First of all, I do not have a belief system. Atheism is not a system, nor is it a belief. It is a lack of belief. As others have stated before, it is like calling bald a hair color. Or not-stamp-collecting a hobby. And I'd like to dispute your claim of anti-theism, but I'd like to first point out that it is not a belief system either.
ReplyDeleteI think your idea of what god is is quite telling of how rooted in human motivation the concept is. Not 100 years ago, it would not have been possible for anyone to have the same belief that you do. You've basically depended on science to provide you with the context of what is proper to believe; the frontier that is still quite experimental and uncertain. Once science demystifies what you believe, though, what will you do? Put it into a low-tech scenario where you think the wind is god... well, what happens when you realize that the wind is caused by pockets of varying air pressure just moving according to standard, predictable physical laws? The more we know, the smaller god becomes.
Now, optimism is not a belief either, you know. It is a state of mind. There are plenty of pessimistic Christians. There are optimistic captives, too. All I need to do is mention the Stockholm syndrome to invalidate the worth of positive thinking as a sole indicator of well being.
Here's what I say: There is no overlying intelligence that controls the universe. There is no reason or purpose for existence. There is no spirit world or law beyond the standard behaviors of the particles and waves that make up existence. I don't necessarily object to people believing otherwise, but I do object to them trying to construct society around their beliefs. Society should be constructed around only reason and logic. This is why I speak out. I am not anti-theistic, I am an activist for reason.