23 February 2010

More Logical Atheism

All rational debate about religion whittles down to one question: does god exist? The burden of proof lies with the party making the positive claim. So, who is making the positive claim? Is it the side that says there is a god or the side that says there is none? From my perspective, there are no such things as "self-evident" truths, so if something exists, it must be backed up by scientific observation. Now, the debate should end there, pending a response that actually means something from the other side. To those who believe in god, the argument starts from the point of god existing, so the debate has a much different flow to it. To believers, the existence of god is self-evident, which is a circular argument, a logical fallacy necessary to uphold the notion that a claim of no god is the logical leap.

What is a self-evident truth, anyhow? By definition, it is something that is understood without necessity of proof. I think we can say, then, that very few philosophical assertions are self-evident.

This self-evident nonsense feeds into the idea that being agnostic is somehow more logical than being hard atheist. Granted, agnosticism is far more logical than believing, but there is something that irks me about it. To put it bluntly, there would be no agnostics if the silly idea of god hadn't been made up in the first place. Now, I do realize the circular overtones of that statement, so let me put it another way. If an agnostic says there could be a god, then they also have to define what kind of god it is. Otherwise this makes the argument no better than saying that there could be a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It is still substantiating a notion that has no evidence. It is easier, simpler and cleaner to note that there is no evidence for god and thus no reason to believe that he exists.

A common argument that a believer usually beings with is the following: is a video game character aware of its programmer? Is a picture aware of its taker? Et cetera... The answer is always no, because none of the things they cite have consciences. The parallels are worse than the metaphors you see in the annual awards for terrible writing. As if obfuscating the argument by suggesting we're in The Matrix makes it more coherent.

Here's one argument that will draw a laugh: so-and-so used to be a prominent atheist and made all the pro-atheist arguments, but they have since converted and now denounce them. The counter to this argument is not in understanding its intention (which is to shake your confidence in your stance) but in understanding its weakness. Indeed, unless you can identify that so-called prominent atheist amongst your own influences (and also confirm the truth that they have converted), then no confidence should be lost. Furthermore, the use of a single convert as sway is desperation. It is not only a logical fallacy, but a losing proposition if taken seriously to begin with. What is one convert against the rapidly growing population that considers themselves as non-believers? Try to appeal to population and you'll find your ground falling away beneath you.

Alas, just because millions of people are doing it doesn't mean it is the right thing. Luckily, we have independently verifiable logic on our side.

17 nibbles:

  1. As someone who both believes and went to an elite tech/engineering institution, I have my own way of balancing the issues.

    Assume there is a Good, and that he gave us free choice. If there were a way to prove that God existed, then any rational being would be forced to believe. Thus God by design did not give any proof of his existence, and therefore by definition, any belief must exist without proof.

    So no matter what we discover about the nature of the universe, it doesn't affect my belief in God. I can believe in the big bang, evolution, and all such theories without it affecting my personal belief that god created the universe.

    If you really wanted to, you could argue that the unpredictability of the quantum realm gives plenty of opportunity for God to exert his influence on the world around us without us being able to prove anything.

    I truly feel sorry for your sister's experiences, and it bothers me as much as you to see religious belief abused or manipulated by others. I myself am anti-war, don't believe this country is God's country, am very much a democrat who believes in the separation of church and state, etc. I guess in this post I mostly wanted to point out that "religion need not be harmful" at a personal level, and "not everything is clearly black and white". But these are my personal views, and I don't necessary expect you to agree them as much as I wanted to just expose you to a middle-ground viewpoint that you may not have been aware existed, since the extremists are the ones that get all the publicity and make all the debates.
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  2. Mike: Thanks for your well reasoned response. It is almost too civil to argue with. I really appreciate your views and your concern. However, (and I'm sure you knew this was coming) it seems that you've marginalized the idea of god to the point where it isn't even necessary to believe in him except as a comforting device. I mean, you're absolutely right that by definition, if there was a way to prove god existed, then belief wouldn't even be the right word to use. So the question is: what good is god if he has no observable effect?
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  3. The definition of "god" must precede the question of whether god exists. (Possibly also the definition of "exists.")

    You have to know what you're talking about before making or refuting claims about it.
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  4. God, in general conversation, is the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, supernatural creator of the universe. These are traits shared by basically all monotheistic (and even some polytheistic) religions and faiths. Namely, though, that's the definition used by Christianity and Islam, which together account for something like 3.6+ billion people out of 6. Once you've got a basic definition or concept in place for god or gods, it becomes very, very easy to address the issue: there's no evidence for god, therefore belief in the existence of god is tantamount to belief in Superman or the Easter Bunny and all other things for which there is a concept but no actual evidence. If you believe in god or gods, you're not believing in a real thing, you're believing in something which can only be demonstrated as fiction.
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  5. Would you contend that there is no possible way to logically reach a conclusion of God's existence? No rational human being could come to such a conclusion?
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  6. Kev, just the same way you could not prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist.
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  7. I see. So the argument is, if you cannot prove it, it does not exist...

    In that case, I would be very interested in hearing your proofs that the following exist:
    - Moral right & wrong
    - Human consciousness
    - Love
    - Mathematical consistency to which all things are subject
    - The existence of black holes
    - The existence of dark matter
    - The existence of stranglets
    - Chaitin's number
    - The world outside yourself
    - The scientific method
    - A theory of everything
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  8. - An answer for any one of the following mathematical problems:
    + Hilbert's 16th Problem
    + Ramsey Numbers
    + Goldbach's Conjecture
    + Brocard's Problem
    + Schanuel's Conjecture
    etc...
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  9. I understand that you believe that the burden is on the believer to prove the existence of a god, but most of your posts are simply degrading those who believe in a god. You're not winning anyone to your side because you're not actually making any arguments.

    I'm a physicist, but also a strong believer of a personal God. Here's the crux of my argument: If "god" and science disagree, then we're misinterpreting one or the other. What science to you have for me that points to a godless universe? Science is a language written by God... who else set the laws of physics? Who else planned the mathematical genius of pi? You're awfully trusting (faith???) if you believe that the eloquence of fractals happened by accident; or the specific 9 proteins needed by the human eye for sight happened to congeal in a soupy pool of lifeless matter. If any one of 9 is missing, then humans have no capacity for sight. Irreducible complexity is a powerful argument for intelligent design.

    My person belief: the existence of the universe itself and the uncontested theory of the big bang make belief in a creator easy. To me, the burden of proof transfers back to the atheist to explain the big bang if not controlled by an all-powerful being. To me the connection between the big bang and "let there be light" is a slam dunk. The big bang, by definition IS the beginning. There was no universe before that. Where did that infinitely dense speck of matter come from? What set it off? Time/space didn't exist before that, so how does that line up with the idea that no puppeteer exists to light the fuse? It lit itself? Please...

    Science = fact. I think science is one way that God reveals himself, but it's not for everyone. It seems preposterous to you that someone could believe in a 10000-year-old earth, but those who do, don't care how old the earth is - it doesn't matter to them. That doesn't make them stupid.

    The existence of God is not undeniably provable - I'll concede that point - but the preponderance of the scientific evidence indicates that a creator exists and has been intimately involved throughout the development of the physical world.

    To some of your points in this post:

    To say there's no such thing as self-evident truths would be to discount the Declaration of Independence, but I still agree with you here. It's not a strong argument at all.

    "It is easier, simpler and cleaner to note that there is no evidence for god and thus no reason to believe that he exists." That very statement which you use to say that agnosticism is not valid, is far closer to agnostic than atheistic to me. A hard atheist would believe that no god exists and I can prove it. If there's simply no evidence to support it, then there's not necessarily any evidence that indicates he doesnt exist. Atheism requires just as much faith as theism. Neither is a fully defensible argument.

    I agree with most of the rest of your post... but simply pointing out the weak points made by weak minds does not prove your side either.

    I'll try to pull out some of my old notes and we can talk science. There's a lot of evidence out there for a creator...

    -brent (sorry so long)
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  10. You guys are awfully feisty.

    Kev: You provide a list of things that I'm not prepared to go through in comments. I will address a couple of those things in further posts.

    Brent: One quick response to the use of "irreducible complexity" - my next post will be a summary of an experiment in bacteriology that thoroughly thrashes that statement. Stay tuned. Those 9 proteins aren't as unlikely as you think.

    Anyways, you need not ogle too long at the perfection of pi, because it goes without saying that a universe without interconnected rules of physics (explained, in some cases, by mathematics) is necessary to create the order that allows things to exist in the first place. Then again, things also need a little chaos to exist as well. If things were too orderly, we would never get anywhere, collecting dust like the fancy dishes in the china cabinet.

    Now the origin discussion is amusing because you use science to learn about the world and still manage to give credit to god for the things you can't explain YET. That is the trend throughout history though, and every mystery we've ever solved about the world turned out to be... not god. I, personally, can withhold my judgment on the things I don't yet know.

    I would argue that believing the earth is less than 10,000 years old does make you stupid, or at least philosophically argumentative (in an annoying way, not enlightening). One would basically have to ignore all the evidence we have (which is a lot) and why? It isn't because there is counter-evidence. No. It is because they believe a *story* that tells them otherwise. SO, instead of going through the direct route and saying, "God created the world, with all of its history 6,000 years ago," (which is itself preposterous, but anyways) they try to use the same science that smart people already know enough about to prove their theory and they don't even realize how idiotic they sound when doing so.

    Anyways, a big hearty facepalm to anyone even putting the following words together: "prove there is no god." As we know, you cannot disprove the existence of something that doesn't exist. It simply is not possible to do. That doesn't mean that there is a possibility of its existence, it means that, logically, something is impossible.

    Thanks for stopping by though. Please check my next one... I hope you'll like it.
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  11. Brett thanks for your input.

    Andrew, I think you are missing the point. The religions your rhetoric is logically destroying are straw men. It is not so easy to dismiss some of the more subtle & intricate faiths' premises as I think you believe (else philosophers would have rooted it out long ago)...

    I do agree with you about the shallowness of the Young Earth Creationist perspective. But interestingly, I also agree with Brett. The only requisite step that is truly outrageous is the huge leap of faith which it takes in the inerrant, literal translation of the bible. But the solipsism which it posits in a way only reflects the Descartian. The logical step is simply that if you grant an omnipotent being the power to do anything logically coherent, it could be the case that the world was created to look this way 10,000/6,000 years ago. All the evidence in existence may simply be here for our benefit/test/etc. That type of evidence does not faze someone who thinks things could have been made to appear this way. The main problem I see logically with this belief (biblically is a different question), is that this logic could also be used to assert the idea that we were created 5 seconds ago, with our memory, environment, and consciousness implanted as we presently see them. There is no way to know, really, if our experiences are real given a God that can do anything in such fashion as He pleases. But given the faith that the bible is literal & inerrant and the premise that God exists (already inherent in biblical belief), the leap in logic is actually not that absurd of a logical one & it is not as 'idiotic' as you contend (Though proof of biblical perfection is not so logical, which is why I am not a young earther).

    In this post, you attempted to address the computer mainframe argument. Again, I believe its outline as presented above to be a straw man. The metaphor is not of a literal computer program or story or picture's object, static in ability because it can only ponder that which its programmer directs it to do. The argument is IF a computer program had the ability to investigate and act independently of its programmer's directives (because it was given what we call free will) THEN it still would be unable to tell that it is in a computer program if the program was self-sustaining. The argument as presented above does not address IF the program's object had a consciousness (which the Matrix example DOES illustrate), would it be able to exceed the parameters of its own existence to a realization of its true creation. I think you dismissed this argument far too quickly to warrant a true logical refutation.

    I still dissent from the idea that "no belief value in x" is equal to "belief that no x exists." If I say, "there are no slave mines in Texas," it is not the same as saying "I have no belief about slave mines in Texas." One is saying something about what exists (or in this case does not exist) and the other is saying something about my mental state of belief, which is a decision unmade about the existence of slave mines in Texas. The two are not equivalent. This argument (or word-play, I should say) does not logically stand as escaping the necessity of proof, despite what some biologist or journalist has told you in his book about why God doesn't exist.
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  12. Also, the idea that you cannot prove something does not exist is incorrect and a sham, given that your argument that follows gives a premise that is unsupported (Namely, "you cannot prove the existence of something that does not exist," which collapses on itself with the naked assertion "something . . . does not exist."). But we can prove the nonexistence of things in the world, by science. I can prove there are no cancerous tumors in my body. I can prove that there are no girls in the boy scouts. I can prove there are no newspapers that state the Browns have won a Super Bowl. I think what you mean to say is that if God didn't exist, science would never be able to prove it, because science cannot prove everything (even though you require science to prove everything). Christians and other religious persons do not maintain that science can definitively prove God exists. Some faith beyond evidence is always necessary (even though many people, like myself, believe that the many proofs for God speak volumes about a faint trace of God in many a place in our world that more likely than not show God exists). The only people asserting that science can have complete force in proving/disproving God are atheists. And although they assert this, there is no way to prove something outside the laws the govern this universe. So the atheist's call to theists to prove something by science ultimately defeats the disproof by the same system. This argument is disingenuous, and I think you know that which is why you seem so confused in that paragraph...

    In your paragraph addressing Brett as to pi, you say "explained, in some cases, by mathematics," when talking about the structure of the world. What about the other cases? Further, math is not self-proving. Attributing certain things to "math" generally, as if it erases the mysterious nature of certain values, does not aid your argument, it helps with refutation. Math is not self-evident. It governs all. But why? There is no answer for the atheist. The theist can easily say, math is the handwriting of God. But maybe you will address that soon...

    I await that post. Sorry so long. Thanks.
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  13. Irreducible complexity is a bigger idea than you "disprove" in your post. The idea that 4, 5, 6 factors CAN come together at just the right time, energy, proportion, etc is inconsequential. The statistical analysis of ALL instances of irreducible complexity in the human body is a much more valid argument. So 9 protiens come together and we can see... got it. Improbable, but possible. Now add that to the myriad of other highly improbable conjunctions, and it becomes statistically impossible for life to exist. Yet we're here...

    Why can't something be science AND God? Why does the fact that science explains something disprove God? Like I said, God created the laws of physics that allow our development to take place. Some believe that God used tools like macro-evolution to create life (I don't). I think the thought that a particular phenomenon cannot be God and science is preposterous. My personal belief is that the 7 days are literal days, but that there are billions/millions/thousands of years between each day... that God stepped in for 6 creation events. Let there be light/day 1/big bang is just the first one. The Cambrian explosion is the result of another... I enjoy learning more about science to understand the WAY God guided the development of life/earth.

    My point about young earthers is just that they're not science people. If you did a poll of atheists, you'd probably get a huge variance of how old they believe the earth is just because they don't care that much or they have a vague recollection from HS science class. Just as many would say 1 million years old as would say 100 billion years.

    It's plausible to argue that (assuming the God of the Bible exists) he created the earth 6000 years ago to look old. He's certainly capable, but I don't like this theory bc it goes against the nature of God - it would be somewhat deceitful. It just comes down to insufficient English translation from a Hebrew writing. Young earthers just take the English version of the Bible too literally. They generally don't attempt to debate science. They have faith in something you could never understand and it's more evidence than they need. Call it what you will... The bible says God is all things to all people. The science has to be accurate in order for scientists to follow him.

    If you cannot disprove something that doesn't exist, then Atheism is a sham. If no such proof is possible, then all atheists are simply agnostics. Agnostics say there is no evidence of a God. Atheists say there absolutely is no God. There is a HUGE leap between the 2. By your own admission then, the Atheist view is not logically coherent. And there are mountains of evidence pointing to a creator, most Atheists are just too narrow-minded to understand their implications, or are waiting for verifiable absolute proof as opposed to a preponderance of the evidence. There is a lot of the data that points to the statistical implications of a creator. The tolerances for the earth's design are so small that statistically it's ability to support life is impossible. I'm out of the country for the next 3 weeks, but there's a book i wish i had with me. I'd love for you to read 'Creation and Time' by Dr Hugh Ross and let me know what you think. It's not a terribly long read, but it's chock full of solid scientific data pointing to a designer.

    -brent
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  14. Brent: You've basically backed yourself into an argument that cannot be disproved. Does that mean it is right? No, it just means it is impossible to debate.
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  15. "Does that mean it is right?"

    No, it just means that you are wrong...
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  16. Kev, it doesn't mean I'm wrong. You're cutting a lot of corners to come to that conclusion. The logical advantage belongs to the party that holds the argument that CAN be disproved, but isn't.
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  17. Accusing me of intellectual dishonesty doesn't refute anything Brett or I have asserted above...
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